Today as the Indian Queer community celebrates 1st anniversary of one of the most significant verdict of recent times, the decriminalization of IPC 377, we at Gaysi couldn’t have found a better candidate for our celebrity profile than our next interviewee, Dr. Devdutt Pattanaik.
The desi-mythological guru, Dr. Pattanaik is one hell of a captivating speaker and someone who would stump you with his simplicity and grounded approach.
Anyway enough of small talk, here’s my conversation with the dude with the most perfect “Colgate” smile…
Many believe that homosexuality is a western import. Your thoughts.
Homosexual feelings are natural, hence universal. However, it has been expressed differently in different cultures. What we call ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’ today is a Western idea, based on free will and human rights and individual freedom; it discomforts many Indians. In India, homosexuality was mostly expressed through gender transformation where one of the same-sex sexual partners behaved like a member of the opposite sex. So there are many tales where men become women (Bhangashvana, Ila in Mahabharata), and women become men (tales from the Bahuchara Mahatmya).
Every Queer’s favourite man Baba Ramdev is now showing keen interest in politics. Are you excited?
He is a brilliant teacher of yogic asanas and pranayama. As a politician, one has to wait and watch. Will he better than the run-of-the-mill politician? Possibly! Will he be ideal? No. Where queer issues are concerned, his reaction has been most disappointing because, as far as I know, yoga is all about getting rid of prejudices.
We’ve grown up listening to stories of illustrious male bonding. Eg. Krishna & Arjun, Ram & Hanuman. But none when it comes to the opposite sex. Do you think our gender biased mentality has something to do with this?
Across India there are temples of twin goddesses for example Chamunda and Chotila of Gujarat. The relationship is never clarified (sisters, friends, mistress and servant, mother and daughter). Besides in Tantra, there are Matrikas and Mahavidyas and Yoginis, who are collectives of women goddesses. These are folk and occult deities, not popularized by modern and mainstream writers. The idea of women having close woman confidant, or Sakhi, is a familiar theme in traditional epics and ballads. For example, Manthara can be seen as Kaikeyi’s Sakhi, but because she is described as bent and ugly we don’t think in terms of female bonding. Yet, it is a powerful relationship that influenced decisions and shaped an epic.
In Indian mythology, Sex is seen as a medium of either procreation or distraction. Was pleasure never the purpose?
Sex was of three types: Kama sex for pleasure, Dharma sex for procreation and Tantra sex for magic and occult. Kama sex was provided by the Asparas in mythologies and courtesans (Ganikas in Hindu India, and Tawaif in Muslim India). Dharma sex was provided by the wife. Kama sex was feared as it could disrupt society. Tantra sex was part of rituals and restricted to practitioners of the occult. In Tantra sex, women were objects of ritual, and neither objects of pleasure nor subjects of pleasure.
Picture Source : The Archer by Devdutt Pattanaik
Kings and queens had all kinds of sexual pleasure. This was seen as hedonism that caused the downfall of society because it distracted them from their primary duty – governance.
We come from the land of Kama Sutra; yet we cringe at the very thought of it. Where did we go wrong?
There was always tension in India between the householder and the hermit. The householder contained sex through domestication. The hermit either rejected sex or saw sex as ritual. Buddhists and Jains and later Hindu monks saw sex as something that distracted man from spiritual pursuits. So sex was always seen in India with a degree of discomfort. From the 18th century onwards, puritanical thinking brought by the British masters and European missionaries made Indians defensive and apologetic about their erotic tradition. Indians spearheaded the banning of the Devadasi culture, equating it with prostitution. The 20th century saw the Gandhian movement which looked down upon sex even when it took place within marriage. Naturally Kama Sutra makes us cringe today.
Decriminalization of IPC 377 is a positive step. However, do you think we still have a long way when it comes to changing our society’s primitive mind set?
Laws do not change people. But they inform society what a nation state stands for. Anti-rape laws have neither stopped rape nor punished rapists. But anti-rape laws clearly inform society that rape is not endorsed by the Indian nation state. Likewise, it would be nice if the Indian nation state clearly and unambiguously declares that it has no desire to control the sexual behaviour of consenting adults in the privacy of their bedroom. I do think society is changing. Every young man and woman in college knows what the word gay or lesbian means. That is a lot more than what they knew two decades ago. Gay characters are appearing in films and television shows. They are part of conversation and media. So society is changing. Maybe not fast enough. But society is changing.
Dev: You are freaking awesome! I am a HUUUUUUUUGE fan of you.*hugs* You reshaped a lot of my thinking after I read “The Pregnant King” and “The Goddess in India”.
In response to the first question, wouldn’t you say your response is more about role-playing in the same-sex when a same-sex partner takes on an alternate role while engaged in intimacy. In contrast, there have been cases where being transgender has played a role – The birth of Ayyappa, the story of Aravan, Shikandi and so on… So would you say transgender was also prevalent in ancient India? There have been numerous cases of intersex folks raised as courtesans, dancers in royal courts.
MJ, you are driving me nuts. First you had an article on Kalki and now Devdutt. OMG! I feel like screaming like a teenage girl! I have read 3 of his books and am currently reading “The Man who was …”. His books is helping me shape my defense to my parents.
Deversity has been in the very foundation of hinduism. And ancient India accommodated homosexual and transgender persons much more positively than we see in India today!
i dont understand the problem with lust! why is sex if an expression of love acceptable but frowned upon otherwise ?
PS: amazing post! MJ baby, u truly rock!
Dr.Pattnaik, your books and your columns are both thought-provoking and delightful to read.
Thumbs up to MJ for bringing us an interview with a powerful thinker.
Happy anniversary, guys! We’re standing by you.
A wonderful and much needed information – thank you.
Why don’t you ask Devdutt Pattanaik about his own homosexuality? Funny, I never see him mention that anywhere. Is he still in the closet? And don’t tell me it’s not a relevant question. I hate homos commenting on homosexuality while they hide their own orientation.
Deal with your hatred bullethead….it is a breeder disease….maybe he is gay, maybe he is not, the words still r true…but you r clearly very jealous
[…] that homosexuality is foreign to Indian culture. Scholars such as Ruth Vanita, Saleem Kidwai, andDevdutt Pattanaik are among those who have discussed same-sex love and transgender people in Indian culture, […]
I disagree with Dr D Patnaik that homosexuality is a not a western concept, or that homosexual feelings are natural or that “What we call ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’ today is a Western idea, based on free will and human rights and individual freedom;”
Homosexual is a western idea based on the premise that sexual attraction for men occurs amongst a small minority … and more importantly, reflects the female spirit in a male body — a ‘different’ kind of male, that necessitates a separate category for ‘homosexuality’ and ‘homosexuals.’
If you remove these western assumptions, the very idea of a separate category for male desire for men, without distinguishing between the gender (man/ third gender) of males, is totally invalid and impractical.
Only, third genders and a few sexual perverts relate with the ‘gay’ identity — whether in the west or the non-west, the regular guys are forced to disown their need for intimacy with men and ‘become’ heterosexual. That is why the western society devised the concept of ‘homosexuality’ in the first place — in order to make it untouchable for men, by assoicating it with the ‘half-males/half-females.’
Dearest NM,
Get a copy of Same-sex Love in India: Readings from Literature and History’. This is a collection of translations from texts written in 15 Indian languages over a period of more than 2000 years. The authors challenges the stereotype that Indian tradition has always been too conservative/puritan to allow any homoerotic exploration, and have done an exceptional job in uncovering gay texts THROUGHOUT INDIAN HISTORY, from the ancient Hindu shastras to the present.
You need to expand your horizons. Seriously!
Best.
ps: read in detail on Krishna-Arjuna relationship in the Bhagavad-Gita. You will be shocked to know how linear your interpretation of their relationship is.
Dear NM
I’m not sure which shocks me more – your homophobia or your ignorance…
Ancient “Indian” texts like the Rig Veda (at least 5000 BCE) and temple sculptures depict sexual acts between women as revelations of a feminine world where sexuality was based on pleasure and fertility.
Author Alka Pande says alternate sexuality was an intrinsic part of ancient India. In her book The Androgyne: Probing the Gender Within, she says, “Right from literature to mythology and religion, homosexuality in ancient India is considered to be the ultimate and acceptable form of the sacred kind.”
In contrast, homosexuals and lesbians in medieval Europe were subject to unspeakable tortures. Most were burned at the stake; and they were the lucky ones!
Except for ancient Greece, where same-sex sexual relations between adult men and pubescent or adolescent boys ( known as pederasty) were the norm rather than the exception, western society has largely been unaccepting of same sex relationships in the past.
As a psychological insight – the worst homophobes are those with internalised homophobia i.e. the ones with latent / unrealised homosexual desire. They are the ones with a constant need to prove that gays don’t exist, or that they themselves aren’t gay, or that gay sex is a perversion…..in truth, they are too scared to face their demons, to accept and embrace true love and live a happy life. I feel bad for them.
Since you are both homophobic and a person that loves to spend his day on a gay blog – you so appear as a prime candidate to be one.
You do need to get laid NM (by a boy, if I might add)
all the best!
i second you gorgeous 😉
:)) thank you!